Welcome to AR10T.com, the world's first forum dedicated to AR-10™ rifles .  We invite you to JOIN our friendly firearms enthusiast forum.

Barrels, Projectiles and Cartridge Prep. 3 parts

  • Posts: 305
  • Thank you received: 42

Barrels, Projectiles and Cartridge Prep. 3 parts was created by zfk55

This will be a 3 part series on Barrels and hBN (Moly as well), Projectile prep, with and without Impact Coating and Complete Case & Cartridge Prep.

Is this an "end-all"? No. It's not. It's a compilation of methedology that has brought us to the point of moa and sub-moa with virtually every caliber rifle we keep.
Specific to this series are two rifles in particular. A Stewart Wilson AR 10 and a Don McCoy High Masters single shot M1 Garand. It takes a full 8 round clip but was designed and built to fire 30-06 cartridges hand fed, one at a time. It's one of the only 3 triple lugged McCoy High Masters rifles in the world.
The Wilson was designed to fire from a loaded 10 round magazine. It too is a one of a kind in that it's the only prototype made by Wilson in his machine shop for the entire EDM (AR 10 style) line. The only real difference (other than a few minor things) is the barrel itself and the method he used to mate the barrel and bolt. Wilson also happens to be the Father of the Windrunner series of semi-auto big bores.
I hope this is an interesting series for you to read. It took nearly three years for us to wade through a tremendous amount of data, trial, error, frustration and finally triumph. Are there other good methodologys? Of course, but this is ours and it all ends with highly repeatable results for us.




Latigo

"When futile negotiating is done, when the corrupt politicians will not hear, when the voice of the citizens is ignored you will then face me under a different and final circumstance."

Col. Michael Hoare
Last edit: 12 years 8 months ago by zfk55.
12 years 8 months ago #8300

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 305
  • Thank you received: 42

Replied by zfk55 on topic Barrels, Projectiles and Cartridge Prep. Part 1

I didn't realize how much interest there is in hBN. It really does make a huge difference in barrel life, so I'll repost it and leave it here.
Answering email after email from a dozen different boards is getting really to be a chore, so here it is.

Both Dad and I consider this procedure to be important for Swiss rifles since barrels are hard to come by and very difficult to replace.
Doubly important for those of us who own zfk55's. All other barrels are definite candidates unless your bore is Electro Polished. Even negative 8 Micron won't penetrate that. Electro polished bores are not usual at all unless it's a custom ordered barrel with that process.

First, an old email response that will help a lot, and its an evolving explanation.

Ok. Even though the process isn't rocket science, this isn't exactly short. I'm posting all of the info I have from a 2 year period of successfully doing this. The main thrust of hBN is not to improve accuracy, but to prolong barrel life. When properly prep'd and slurry treated, your barrel can double and even triple it's expected accuracy life. These are excerpts from writings and emails to enquirers by my Father.
Every barrel in every rifle here but one has been treated. Not one projectile goes down range that isn't hBN inpact coated save those for one solitary Moly dedicated rifle.
Your bore is going to make a difference right out of the gate. Both Moly and hBN have specific applications. Lab Grade Moly is typically 99.8% pure with a 1 to 3 micron size. hBN (far more preferrable in most bores) is typically negative 5 micron or smaller.
First, hBN. The patent shows it as being most effective on a standard steel bore, and has no effect on a 17-4 S/S Electro Polished bore, this because the negative micron particles cannot ingrain themselves into the surface and create the required ceramic protective coating.
hBN is not susceptible to moisture and thus does not allow corrosion to affect the lands/grooves of the bore. This is a rather large advantage over Moly.
The process is simple. If you've ever fired a copper jacketed projectile in your rifle, use a water based copper removal specific such as Wipe Out. Whatever you use, make sure its water based and ammonia free. Once you've borescoped and found the bore to be completely copper free, if the bore is .30 caliber, roll a .270 (or whatever, but a bit smaller diameter than your bore) caliber clean swab in a mixture of 100% Denatured Alcohol and hBN. Use a small, sealable pill bottle, glass or plastic to mix and store the slurry. The ratio should replicate a slurry the consistency of whole milk. Run it back and forth through the bore. Within half an hour I fire an impact coated projectile through the bore and that's it. The bore is effectively ceramic coated.
Everyone has a methodology and most involve pill bottles in the tumbler suspended in media. I don't. I use 16oz (and larger) plastic jars with screw on lids, and not inside the tumbler in in the media. I made a secondary lid for the tumbler/vibrator on a CNC. Its 1/2" thick Sintra with a 1/4" deep channel cut into the bottom to fit over the inside and outside edge of the tumbler. A 5/16" hole is drilled in the dead center to acommodate the shaft and wing-nut. All four jars are spaced evenly around the shaft on top of the lid. The tumbler is empty.

Dillon Commercial

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



Lyman Standard

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.




All four (or two) jars are filled to the 1/3rd mark with impact coated .177 steel bBBs. The BBs must be washed in Dawn with no additives or cleaned with a Sonic Vibrator and denatured alcohol. Add a nominal 1.5gr of hBN.
Place 50 .30 caliber (or whatever, untouched by human hands) clean projectiles in each jar, add a nominal .5gr of hBN and vibrate for three hours. The jars on top impact coat the projectiles easily 4 times harder and faster than in a pill bottle suspended inside the tumbler in media. Once the lids are screwed down tight, use a 1/2" wide strip of plastic tape around the area between the lid and the jar. Negative 5 micron hBN is so fine it can potentially find it's way through the threads.
Use a large slotted spoon, (slotted wide enough to allow the impact coating BBs to fall through, but not the projectile)s to remove the impact coated projectiles from the jars and tumble them in a Terrycloth towel.
We begin by stripping the chambers, throats and bore with Wipe Out. Its an ammonia free, water based bore cleaner that removes literally everything. Carbon, copper, any kind of fouling including Moly. We leave the Foam Type Wipe Out in the bore and throat for about two hours then dry swab everything. We do a follow-up inspection for any copper residue with a Hawekeye Borescope. A complete, 100% copper free bore is essential.
I wash the bullets in very hot, soapy water with Dawn. I use a bowl with a plastic strainer that just fits in it. Once washed, I thorougly rinse with hot water, not cold. From that point I handle the projectiles as little as possible and then only with disposable latex gloves. Assuming you've already treated the .177 steel BBs, you can put 50 to 75 .30 caliber or 100 smaller caliber bullets in each jar.


This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.


(Update)
We've added to our method just a bit. We now place a thin layer of dense foam in the bottom of the Dillon. the jars are sealed where the top threads down onto the jar with plastic tape to keep any hBN from leaking out. We place the jars on their sides and pack them in with chunks of foam. We place enough foam on top of them so that when the vibrator lid is screwed down they're trapped tightly. This keeps everything horizontal and the bullets stay on the horizontal position. Works much better and you won't need a specialty lid for your Dillon. The attatched pics are of one of our smaller vibrators with two of the older jars we original used. We now use the new jars in the larger Dillon, but they do show how the jars are packed and kept horizontal.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.




This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.




With hBN, heat is definitely good but not entirely necessary. We use heat in the form of a Halogen body shop lamp. Placement of the lamp is critical for the well-being of your tumbler. Too close and you'll soften the plastic. Vibrate them for 3 hours. Remove them with a slotted spoon and tumble them in a Terry towel a few times. They'll come out perfect. This horizontal impact coating with steel BBs in a vibrator with no media makes them hit hard and fast, and that's the secret to perfect coating. Even small tipped bullets come out perfectly with no damage to the plastic tips at all.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.


This original system we developed works well too. The advantage is that you can add media in the tumbler/vibrator and clean cases while impact coating your projectiles. We still do this once in a while, so we often have both methods going at the same time.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This is the original patent if you're inclined to read it all. Sometimes its not easy to find the pertinent parts in all of this dry reading, but its all there. We've made a study of it, and we're very successful doing it. www.patentstorm.us/patents/7197986/description.html
(Note:)
If you don't have the foaming type Wipe Out for your bore, use the liquid Wipe Out with a nylon bristle brush, working up a heavy foam and let stand for a few hours.
Put the foam nozzle in from the breech and push down just once or twice. It expands tremendously. Wait till you see it appear at the muzzle, then you can plug the breech end with a fired case and a dry patch at the case mouth. Push it in tight.
Dry clean completley with patches or clean swabs.
Take a new .30 caliber cotton swab, or take your old ones and run them through the laundry or dishwasher. Dry completely.
Short switch back to square one:
You'll get your hBN in a container with a plastic, tape seal around the outside. Open it with extreme care and only long enough to fill a small, sealable pill bottle 1/3rd full. Re-seal the container immediately. Re-apply the exterior tape seal fully and tightly. Store at room temps in a secure place. Spill that container in a room in the house and your wife will be using a bat on you for weeks to come.
(No, I didn't, and my wife learned from mk,y nMother and uses porcelain Darning Eggs instead of bats!)
Screw the swab to the end of a cleaning rod just long enough to run the bore, open the hBN/Alcohol slurry pill bottle, roll the swab in the hBN/Alcohol slurry, (close the hBN bottle immediately) insert into the bore from the breech end if possible. If your rifle won't acommodate that, run it carefully from the muzzle end. Go all the way through and then work it gently back and forth while slowly withdrawing the swab.
The first impact coated projectile fired through the bore will do the ceramic coating for you, and that's it. You've done it. From that point on fire only impact coated projectiles through that rifle. Cleaning is done with dry patches, no chemicals at all.
For the chamber/throat area, use the right sized swab to fit into each and use Montana Extreme or a like carbon remover. Don't run any cleaning solvents down the bore.
If you feel the need to do that once in a while, cool...... but make sure you use the clean swab and do the hBN/Alcohol slurry process again. It only takes a few minutes. I unscrew the swab and keep it inside the slurry pill bottle so that it remains uncontaiminated.
To understand how it works, save me a bunch of typing and read the patent.
So how often do you clean an impact coated bore? 50 rounds? 100? 200? 300? 1,000? I don't know yet. No cleaning required so far, and if the patent is correct it will be a long time to come.
The Hawkeye Borescope always tells the glaring truth about your bore. After each shooting session I pass one dry patch down the bore, just once. So far in any and all of the bores thus treated.......... no necessity to clean at all. The most amazing has been the little .22 rifles.
Latigo

"When futile negotiating is done, when the corrupt politicians will not hear, when the voice of the citizens is ignored you will then face me under a different and final circumstance."

Col. Michael Hoare
Last edit: 12 years 8 months ago by zfk55.
12 years 8 months ago #8301

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 305
  • Thank you received: 42

Replied by zfk55 on topic Projectile prep, Part 2 a

Anything out to 200 yards we won't necessarily do this, but beyond that range we would.

This is our process. Your's may vary, but this has proven itself for us.

Projectile prep:

We only use Berger VLDs in our Swiss Rifles, but Sierra SMKs work really great too. 175 VLD's are not going to work in your AR 10 so you'll be using the 175 SMK's.
Our method is to begin with meplat trimming. We use the Hoover. Buy the sort that indexes on the ogive, not the base of the bullet. That's going to be very important when you cross reference/compare actual seat depth from the ogive to COAL, cartridge to cartridge later.

Untrimmed

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



Trimming process.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



Trimmed

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



We then use a Hoover Pointer to reshape and center the hollow point and we taper it down to an opening that's approximately twice the thickness of the jacket wall.

Pointing

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



Pointed correctly

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This is only the beginning of our overall case/projectile prep process.
Latigo

"When futile negotiating is done, when the corrupt politicians will not hear, when the voice of the citizens is ignored you will then face me under a different and final circumstance."

Col. Michael Hoare
Last edit: 12 years 8 months ago by zfk55.
12 years 8 months ago #8302

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 271
  • Thank you received: 57

Replied by JustMe on topic Re: Projectile prep, Part 2 a

Great info. Keep it coming. Thanks for your hard work, Jer
12 years 8 months ago #8305

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 305
  • Thank you received: 42

Replied by zfk55 on topic Re: Projectile prep, Part 2 a

You're welcome, Jer. I just need a few more days to put together the next sequence.
Latigo

"When futile negotiating is done, when the corrupt politicians will not hear, when the voice of the citizens is ignored you will then face me under a different and final circumstance."

Col. Michael Hoare
12 years 8 months ago #8307

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 5847
  • Thank you received: 556

Replied by jtallen83 on topic Re: Projectile prep, Part 2 a

I'm not up on all the terminology so I thought I'd better ask before trying the hBN or moly coating on my bore. Is it effective on chrome lined bores?
Will coated bullets still have an advantage in my chrome lined bore?

Thanks for all your time and effort!!!!!
LIBERTY FIRST!
12 years 8 months ago #8311

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 305
  • Thank you received: 42

Replied by zfk55 on topic Re: Projectile prep, Part 2 a

J, this is what we've found. In a chrome lined barrel the slurry does not seem to bond but..........
When firing ICP's (Impact Coated Projectiles) downrange through the chrono, the pressure definitely dropped with showed taht the hBN was doing it's job. The chrono will always tell you the truth. Our Wilson is electo polished and it also doesn't bond with that barrel, but.. again, the chrono showed a definite pressure drop with teh ICP's, and that tells us that it is working.
I do0n't have a definitive answer for a chrome bore and hBN, but I DO have a definite answer as pertains to Moly.

Don't believe all the hype negatives about Moly. Its definitely not hard to remove and it definitely DOES work in a chrome lined bore. I'll be posting our formula and methodolgy for Moly in this same thread. We definitely use it in the Wilson and that rifle actually requires Moly for performance.
The only true way to determine if hBN works in your bore is to try it, and watch for any copper fouling. If you do see copper fouling, switch right to Moly. I'll cover all of that soon.
For the moment, start with a completely clean bore (No copper or carbon), fire two rounds through your chrono, get a reading, clean the rifle again and fire two ICP rounds (identical loads) through the chrono again. Note the pressure drop. If you see a drop, it's working, but also watch for copper fouling. If that appears forget the hBN for that particular bore.

If you need two hBN and Moly ICP's email me. You can send me a padded SASE and I'll ship you a few for testing.
Latigo

"When futile negotiating is done, when the corrupt politicians will not hear, when the voice of the citizens is ignored you will then face me under a different and final circumstance."

Col. Michael Hoare
Last edit: 12 years 8 months ago by zfk55.
12 years 8 months ago #8312

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 305
  • Thank you received: 42

Replied by zfk55 on topic Re: Projectile prep, Part 2 b

This is our process. Your's will vary, but this has proven itself for us.

Moly Impact Coating:

If you projectiles are to be Meplat trimmed and Pointed, do it now.

Moly is something we're using in a projectile dedicated AR10 Custom Build rifle with a Walther 17-4 S/S, Electro Polished bore. If you're going to use Moly you absolutely must remove any and all traces of copper from your bore. Degreasing the projectiles is critical. Dawn or a like soap,100 projectiles or more in a plastic collander. Place the collander in a bowl large enough to contain it and add Dawn soap and very hot water. Use your hands if you can stand it, or use a plastic bristled dish scrubber and run it back and forth through the projectiles with a swirling scrubbing action.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



Remove the collander from the bowl and rinse well with very hot water. Place a large, clean thick Terry towel on the counter and gently dump the projectiles onto the first 1/3rd of the towel. Do not touch the projectiles from this point on other than with latex or like gloves unless your hands are scrubbed clean and free of body oils. Human body oil is as bad as motor oil. I use the disposable hospital latex gloves. They come in a box of 100 and they're thin and super cheap. Your clean hands are ok for spreading them out on the towel. After that use gloves. Spread the projectiles out flat in a close group and let them sit for 15 minutes. Lift up the towel by the edges and roll them into the next 1/3rd area. Repeat

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



Everyone and his brother has a methodology and most involve small pill bottles in the tumbler suspended with corncob media or the far less desireable Thumbler's Tumbler. I don't.
Method A: I use large 16oz plastic straightwalled jars with a slight taper toward the bottom with screw on lids, and not inside the tumbler in in the media. We use one of our shop made 1/2" thick Sintra tops, made to fit the tumbler/vibrator. Two or four holes (depending on the model) are cut to accept the jars.

Please pay no attention to any pricing shown for these vibrator tops. We don't sell to the public anyway and Graf's has been negotiating on carrying these tops.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



Method B: All four jars are spaced evenly around the shaft on their sides, blocked with dense foam.
Place .177 Dawn washed steel BBs in the bottom 1/4 of each jar. Add two heaping teaspoons of Lab Grade Moly in each and seal the jars. Vibrate for three full hours pausing at the 1 1/2 hour mark to remove them from the vibrator top and shake up and down vigorously a few times. Replace them snugly and continue vibrating to 3 hours.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



Place 50 to 75 .30 caliber (or whatever, untouched by human hands) clean projectiles in each of the four jars, add a very liberal 2 to 3 Tsp. of Moly and vibrate for three hours. Within reason, you cannot use too much Moly. The unused Moly simply stays in the jar and keeps working on the next batch. Moly does not penetrate the copper jacket like hBN, so unused Moly simply sloughs off the projectile when its sufficiently coarted. The jars contained in the Dillon impact coat the projectiles easily 4 times harder and faster than in a pill bottle suspended inside the tumbler in media.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



We bought the Sierra Moly coated SMKs to compare to our process. Sierra's and Tubb's seem to be identical in coating. It took almost half again as much effort to scratch ours as it did the Sierras. Our process was given to us by our AR10s builder. He impact coats some 2,000 projectiles a week for his Security Contract buyers of his rifles and for EDM. He uses 4 of the Commercial Dillon Tumbler/Vibrators. He had been using two large plastic mayonnaise jars taped to the tops of his Dillons until we got involved. We supplied him with our custom Sintra made tops and that's all he uses now.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



The final super important factor in finishing our bullets came from our AR10 builder. Heat. So much heat that you can barely touch the bullets when the process it done. Our vibrator tops are 1/2" thick flat black Sintra (Expanded PVC), and black absorbs heat like crazy. Our heat sources are large Halogen Body Shop lamps. You have to experiment with distance above the jars to get it right. Too close and you'll soften or melt the jars. Too far and you don't get enough heat. We place them at 45 degrees to the top on either side. If you can find a better or different heat source that works, go for it. Whatever works for you.

Use a large slotted spoon to remove the impact coated projectiles from the jars and transfer them immediately to a dry, thick Terry-Cloth towel.. Grip the towel by both ends, fold them closed and roll the projectiles back and forth in the towel about 8 to 12 times. They're going to come out a bright, rich silver/pewter color and the Moly coat will be very difficult to scratch other than with a steel implement like a screwdriver. You shouldn't be able to remove any at all with your fingernail. They're going to be dead smooth looking with no blotchiness at all.

Terry Towel tumbled.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



100 finished ICPs

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.

Latigo

"When futile negotiating is done, when the corrupt politicians will not hear, when the voice of the citizens is ignored you will then face me under a different and final circumstance."

Col. Michael Hoare
Last edit: 12 years 8 months ago by zfk55.
12 years 8 months ago #8314

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 305
  • Thank you received: 42

Replied by zfk55 on topic Re: Projectile prep, Part 2 b

Case Prep for the AR10
This is directed specifically at the AR10.

We use one type of case only. The Lake City LR, and our lot of 1,000 is a 2004 Mfg stamp. These are once fired and collected by Bartlett. If the LR is not headstamped then you probably have machinegun fired Lake City.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



The first step is lubing, and we use Castor Oil. Yeah, I kinow. There are many hundreds of threads and thousands of posts all over the net about "the" best lube. Want to waste your money? Go for it. None of them beat Castor Oil. Its cheap and takes no more than 3 drops to do 100 cases. We line a shallow baking pan with foil, a few drops of Castor Oil, roll them around a couple of times and that's it. This is just for a demo. We ususally do 100 at a time.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



We use a side bench mounted neck lube brush that has a miniscule amount of Castor Oil on the bristles applied with fingers.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



Resize and de-cap the primer, then...... remove the expander rod. Resize with a bushing die of the right diameter. We have a seperate press for each process, but if you don't you'll need to go through the sizing process twice, once with the Expander/De-capper and once with the bushing die. We use Redding Micro's for both processes.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



A quick wipe.....

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



And on to the Wilson Trimmer. Use what works for you, but whatever it is, be certain that there is not one iota of variance case to case.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



Ream and Champfer gently. There's no need to be aggressive with the brass.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



Insert primers. For this process we use the RCBS built in primer seater. A new Forster will be here this week and that will be dedicated to two processes, one of which is primer seating.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



I've purposely ignored primer pocket truing and I'll explain why later.
For projectile seating we use the Redding Micro and that, for us, is critical.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.


We have electronics, but for precision reloading we use a very long I beam scale.

This image is hidden for guests.
Please log in or register to see it.



Next will come seat depths and primer pocket truing.
Latigo

"When futile negotiating is done, when the corrupt politicians will not hear, when the voice of the citizens is ignored you will then face me under a different and final circumstance."

Col. Michael Hoare
Last edit: 12 years 8 months ago by zfk55.
12 years 8 months ago #8348

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

  • Posts: 305
  • Thank you received: 42

Replied by zfk55 on topic Re: Projectile prep, Part 2 b

Just to save some emails..... I'll have the rest of it and load data in a couple more days. Super busy here.
Latigo

"When futile negotiating is done, when the corrupt politicians will not hear, when the voice of the citizens is ignored you will then face me under a different and final circumstance."

Col. Michael Hoare
12 years 8 months ago #8375

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Show 'em Off!

Add your rifle to the AR-10 Photo Thread!