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Te AR 10 VS the M14

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Replied by BUILDING MY SASS on topic Re: AR 10 for CQB???

I have been following this thread a bit.....
There is no "CQB" with a AR-10...308, there is CRE....."Close Range Engagements"...
because with the 7.62x51---.308
you are going to shoot through what ever you aim at..:dry:
but if you what to set it up....then do it like this....
BMS
It is better to have and not need, than need and not have.

If you think it is time to bury your guns, it is time to dig them up....


"Fight back! Whenever you are offered violence, fight back! The aggressor does not fear the law, so he must be taught to fear you. Whatever the risk, and at whatever...
Last edit: 13 years 1 month ago by BUILDING MY SASS.
13 years 1 month ago #7091

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Replied by crux on topic Re: AR 10 for CQB???

AR10 CQB? Why force entry when you can shoot through the walls?

I've heard they make safety / powder rounds for 308, but personally I think it's really the wrong tool for in-doors.


More on modern rifles and walls:


8m54s is when they get to the .308

and:
www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot4.htm
Last edit: 13 years 1 month ago by crux.
13 years 1 month ago #7093

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Replied by LebbenB on topic Re: AR 10 for CQB???

For the most part I agree with you, especially given the way houses are built. A homeowner investigating a "bump in the night," which is the most likely CQB situation most citizens will face, would be actually be at somewhat of a disadvantage with a .308. Even with an effective flash hider/muzzle brake/compensator there's still a considerable amount of muzzle blast and noise when firing a .308 indoors.

There are some second and third order effects with .308 as a CQB cartridge. First and foremost is the possibility of over-penetration, as you and BMS have already alluded to. Then there's cost (It always comes back to money, doesn't it?) Even with hand-loading, .308 is more expensive than the common alternative of 5.56/.223. This impacts how often one can train. Even the cost of 5.56/.223 has driven many folks to train with a look-alike platform chambered in .22LR or use a .22 conversion kit.

HOWEVER, .308 does have a place in CQB. In a high-intensity situation where there's less concern for collateral damage, a short barreled .308 carbine can be the exact "bigger hammer" you need to get the job done. There's a reason SOCOM kept the Mk 17 and decided to chuck the Mk 16.

Portability with great terminal effectiveness has always been the grail of weapon and ammo designers. Short range calibers such as .300 Whisper, .450 Bushmaster, .458 SOCOM and, lately, .300 AAC Blackout all attempt to put DRT capability and better barrier blind penetration while retaining the portability and familiarity of the AR platform. The popularity/success of these cartridges can be judged by answering a simple question: "Can you buy a box of it at Wal-Mart?" (The exception here is .300 AAC Blackout, since it's very new - time will tell.)

Earlier, our good friend Lazerus2011 posited this:There are, quite literally, hundreds of thousands of people who could argue this statement. Unfortunately they can't because they're dead. At CQB ranges (50m or less and some would argue 25m or less) a modern 5.56/.223 load is very lethal indeed. Based on my experience - and I've got a lot - there is no question about the capability of 5.56 within the given envelope. Is it the end-all be-all of CQB cartridges? No, of course not. But currently it offers a good balance of lethality, shootability and affordability that make it hard to beat.
RLTW
13 years 1 month ago #7094

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Replied by crux on topic Re: AR 10 for CQB???

Agree on appropriateness when the need is to punch through whatever is there without great concern for collateral damage. The .308 "can do".

For the home/in-doors though I have a 40s&w pistol as primary for it's size and convenience, with a 20 round saiga 12 as backup. The latter being the best fit I could find for the AZ nightmare scenario of "four cartelistas wearing armor invading the wrong house" (has happened in town).

The AR10 would be my first choice for "madman in a truck trying to rundown your neighbors", which did happen in my neighborhood while I was away. (Is it a wonder I decided to move?)
13 years 1 month ago #7095

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Replied by BUILDING MY SASS on topic Re: AR 10 for CQB???

Don't know how this went from the AR-10 vs the M-14 to CQB but never the less...
as someone said once....

Why 7.62x51,
because when the shooting starts, people tend to hide behind things..:dry:
BMS
It is better to have and not need, than need and not have.

If you think it is time to bury your guns, it is time to dig them up....


"Fight back! Whenever you are offered violence, fight back! The aggressor does not fear the law, so he must be taught to fear you. Whatever the risk, and at whatever...
13 years 1 month ago #7096

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Replied by Lazerus2011 on topic Thinking outside the envelope ...

"7.62 NATO ... turning cover into concealment for decades"

The AR 10 VS the M14 was the initial heading for this thread, but I find it fascinating how it has morphed some how into a very interesting and detailed discussion on CQB.and a comparison of various CQB cartridge and platform choices. From listening to some different perspectives, I am learning some new things ... which is after all the whole point of these type of threads.

I was trained as an infantry officer, and I am not and never have been a professional door kicker ... though some of my friends are or were. My training in "house cleaning" was ancient history, with the FN FAL and the Sterling SMG, and using C4 as the entrance doorway of choice. And yes, while none of these [ by modern standards ] would be considered ideal for the role today, "House Cleaning" CAN and HAS be done successfully with an FN FAL ... but one of the NEW Dyson "turbo" vacuum cleaners would probably be more efficient.

LebbenB took one of my initial statements regarding my desire to optimise my AR10 for "CQB" use and ran with it. His experience and training in this area has apparently led him to question my choice of an AR 10 for the "CQB" role. And he makes some very good, well educated and perceptive arguments. Especially the one about how .308 Ammo costs too much ... even though 6.8 SPC [ at least here in Canada ] costs even more. Like many others, for economic reasons, I practice a LOT with my .22 LR conversion kit on my AR 15.

HOWEVER,
just to clarify ....
I am NOT trying to turn an AR10 into the ULTIMATE CQB solution.

I have an 11.5" AR 15 in .223, with specialised .223 ammunition for this role, and most of us will agree that the AR 15 is smaller, lighter, and more nimble than any AR 10 can ever be, and thus better for CQB. And while I am comfortable trusting 5.56/.223, with the right ammunition, as a viable CQB choice, I personally [ and MANY others ] would be even more comfortable with more power in the AR 15 mag length platform. The 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, .300 Whisper, .300 Blackout, and the BIG bore "THUMPER" AR 15 cartridges did NOT develop in a vacuum. These cartridges were created because there was a perceived need for more power for the AR 15 in CQB AND in general duty roles.

What I am trying to do is make one of the AR 10 rifles that I have as good as it can be at CQB WITHOUT compromising the versatility and long range performance of the AR 10 platform.

Most of us will agree that an AR 10 in 7.62 NATO IS, and probably always will be, a more versatile all around "Battle Rifle" than any M4rgry in any caliber can be. Like I keep saying, I respect VERSATILITY above all else in my fire arms choices. And a short AR 10 seems to me to be the ideal choice for that elusive "one rifle" that blends the best of the "Assault Rifle" breed with the best of the "Battle Rifles".

My situation is different than your situation.
My choices will therefor be different than your choices.
YPMMV!!

For example, I live on a secluded acreage that is 200 yds from one of the biggest natural forest preserves on Vancouver Island. We have seen Cougar tracks in our yard. Last Summer, we came home to a Black Bear. And when I lived up North, in Northern BC, bumping into a Grizzly at smelling distances was not all that uncommon. So my definition of "CQB" is probably quite different from yours.

My possible scenarios for CQB include "Things that go bump in the night" INSIDE the house. Last time this happened, I was alone in the house, brand new wife 1000 Km up North in Prince Rupert, attending a Wilderness Women's Outdoors training class. With some one UNEXPECTEDLY staggering down my hall way at 0: Dark 30, for my "Tactical Solution" I chose a BIG can of bear spray and a 4D Maglite flashlight instead of the 12 Ga lying next to the bed.

GOOD THING!!

That incident turned out to be my brand new step son, in town for the weekend, who stopped by to do his laundry. If I had pointed a 12 Ga at him, or worse yet shot him, I don't think my marriage would have lasted another week. As it was, wife and I had a serious discussion about "security", and the fact that she had given all her kids keys to our new home without telling me.

These days, where I live now, any "bump in the night inside the house" would have to climb up a steep stair way and OVER the 110 lb German Shepherd Dog who sleeps at the top of stairs ... where my "Guardian Angel" can keep an eye on things. At that point, the Glock in .40 S&W, with the VERY BRIGHT light, would be my first grab. NOT my AR 15, and NOT my AR 10.

Things that go "GROWL" or "MEOW" in the night, just outside the house, or worse yet disputing right of passage to the barbecue that sits on our upper deck with my 110 Lb Guardian Angel .... well that is a different kettle of fish entirely. And that is where the 18.5" AR 10 and the 11.5" AR 15 would come into play.

Like I said,
YPMMV,
but I still prefer the VERSATILITY of the AR 10 in .308 WIN, over any other "ONE GUN" choice for my personal situation.

PS: My Brother in Law lives in Washington, and he has invited me on an ELK hunt next season. The rifle I will be bringing along will be my shorty AR 10 in .308.

C'ant hunt Elk that with an M4rgry.

While I have [ legally ] hunted small deer with a .223, and while those deer were just as instantly dead as any deer ever, I took ONLY head shots at STANDING deer.
For an ALL AROUND, ONE RIFLE solution, for tactical AND Practical, I will always go with an AR 10 in .308. And I will vary the loads to suit the tactical/practical scenarios.

But I will be keeping my shorty AR 15 M4rgry in 5.56 .... for the wife, for practice, for shooting with the .22 LR conversion kit And most likely, when they become viable here on Scenic Fantasy Island, BC, Canuckistan, I will be adding a 16" .300 Blackout upper to it . Because, even though I would like to find that perfect, elusive, most versatile, "One rifle that will do it all", in 50 years of looking, I ain't found it yet.

But a shorty AR 10 in .308 comes closest.
13 years 1 month ago #7097

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Replied by Lazerus2011 on topic PS: to crux:

My wife and I just got back from Mexico. She was there for 9 weeks, I joined her for the last three weeks. Originally, the plan was to fly back to Phoenix and buy or rent a camper van, and spend a month exploring Arizona as our new "winter home".
Many other Canadian SNOWBIRDS that we know do this, love it, and we have been thinking about joining them ever since we retired last year.

But we changed our minds and instead just bought our vacation home somewhere else.

Guess why?
13 years 1 month ago #7099

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Replied by crux on topic Re: PS: to crux:


I'm very sad about it. Southern Arizona is beautiful, used to be a wonderful place to live, and if it weren't for the cartel violence, it still would be.

At any rate, here's the close quarter round for .308 I had seen a discussion on somewhere in the past: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaser_Safety_Slug

Supposedly they manufactured bullets for loading into .308, but I hadn't met anyone that had actually done it / tried it.

Wandering but thought provoking discussion this thread, most enjoyable.
13 years 1 month ago #7101

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Replied by BUILDING MY SASS on topic Re: PS: to crux:

Hey Laz...wasn't hashing on you just being a smart arss...:dry:

"7.62 NATO ... turning cover into concealment for decades"

I like that one .....B)
BMS
It is better to have and not need, than need and not have.

If you think it is time to bury your guns, it is time to dig them up....


"Fight back! Whenever you are offered violence, fight back! The aggressor does not fear the law, so he must be taught to fear you. Whatever the risk, and at whatever...
13 years 1 month ago #7105

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Replied by Lazerus2011 on topic "7.62 NATO ... turning cover into concealment .."

"7.62 NATO ... turning cover into concealment for decades"
YEP!
Hard to argue with that "BIGGER HAMMER" logic.
Especially when you are young.

These days I am not so young, and I take a lot of Glucosamine. When it comes to rifles, I shoot more .22 LR than 5.56/.223 and 7.62/.308 put together. Pistol shooting is done with Glocks, again mostly with a .22 LR conversion. My G22, G31 and G35 are all set up to shoot .40 S&W and 9mm, and .357 SIG as well. My FAVORITE pistol cartridge is the .357 SIG. But realistically, I shoot way more 9mm and .22 LR than any thing else.

Retirement is great .... it consists, so my wife tells me, of "growing old gracefully". But some how .45 Super, .44 Mag, .357 SIG, and .308 Win are not as much fun for me as they once were. That "Bigger Hammer" seems to have hit back.

Maybe a prescription for .300 Blackout will perk me up?
13 years 1 month ago #7107

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