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...Determining "Value" In Today's Environment...

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...Determining "Value" In Today's Environment... was created by George G. Fries

Realized is there is not a more ambiguous question to submit to membership interested in responding. To round out my collection, desired is purchasing an AR-10. I have watched and read the forums here since becoming a member.

Objective is purchasing an AR-10 for moderate to semi-skilled shooting at ranges with 100- meter, 300-meter, 500- meter, 800- meter and 1200- meter distances. In possession are 3000+ rounds of military surplus 7.62 of varying quality and age derived from several countries. I am not into reloading yet. I enjoy my match grade Springfield M1A, Rock River AR-15A2, Arsenal AK-47, Garand M1, Eddy Stone 1917, and Springfield 1903, .17 cal. Remington, several .22 cal. rifles, and skeet/trap shotguns, all used at the rifle range, and all use “iron sights”, (I don’t shoot with glass). Hunting is enjoyed two or three times a year, traveling from Florida to the Dakota’s and Montana.

Prior to the current mania, I had in hand a new Rock River AR-10A4 at Florida Gun Exchange for $1100.00. Hindsight is that minimally I should have put money down, or bought it without the “wife’s” approval, (we’re both retired). My goal had been an Armalite National Match AR-10 or the Armalite Super SASS preferred over other makes due sentimental reasoning. The question is; at what cost point does value diminish on these or any other manufactured AR-10 rifles with a 20” barrel? There are many components that could be bought alongside the Rock River AR-10A4, whereas with the two Armalite’s mentioned, their cost would leave me limited. In the vast majority of collective opinions here at www.AR-10T.com , a consensus, (if possible), would be appreciated helping me decide “how much is too much” to spend? Giving rise to the induced, (gouged?), prices for AR’s these days, is it better to wait? I purchased the Armalite AR-10A4 Super SASS from www.personalchoiceoutfitters.com including additional magazines for $2800.00. They attached it immediately to the credit card. Therefore it is paid for, but backordered. Given time to consider/re-consider this purchase relative to the Rock River AR-10A4 at $1100.00, (now seen as high as $2300.00), am I better off waiting for the hysteria to die down and corresponding corporate supply to build up—question number one. Given the brief above regarding use, (I’m not fanatical about sub-MOA groups), opinions are welcomed with denoting what point am I buying, (or paying too much) for too much rifle—second question.

I am ill-suited accepting mediocrity, preferring not to purchase “cheaply” an inferior product. As with my hearing, I appreciate the music from my $600.00 speakers. Listening to a set of $5000.00 speakers, I was hard pressed to hear any better quality. My “fixed” income already supports a variety of “toys”, yet the void of an AR-10 remains somewhat irksome. Trusted is the “can of worms” I may be opening up will offer my further insight with making the best informed decision finding that most suitable AR-10A$. Thank you all in advance for your time and thoughtfulness helping me decide.

George G. Fries
DAB FL 32117
11 years 3 months ago #16036

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Replied by Siscowet on topic ...Determining "Value" In Today's Environment...

George, this is a tough one, because so many of your questions are subjective. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". I happen to be retired as well, an last July ordered a Rock River Arms standard A4 .308 except for a floating handguard. Then the wait was 120 days. After 126 days I was told at least another 90 days. I ended up buying what turned out to be the last AR10 A4 on my Local gun stores shelf. A little ($100) more, but it is everything I wanted or needed in a .308 AR. Rock River is known for their barrels and accuracy, but Armalite is known for their accuracy as well. If I was an active duty sniper, or shooting in Camp Perry matches I might be able to discern the difference. At my current skill set and eye strength, I doubt if I could. . In this market I would purchase the one I could find and get magazines for. At the distances you are talking I think reloading or premium ammo will be in your future if it isn't there already, Shooting good ammo in a great rifle won't get you the performance shooting great ammo in a great rifle will.. Also keep in mind with iron sights you will never achieve the full capability of any of the above mentioned rifles. Back to what's a fair value? You won't get it right now. If you want one, expect to pay a lot. Waiting is a gamble, because if they are restricted, current prices may seem cheap. Than again, in two years, it may go back down, although I doubt they will ever return to what they were in June of last year. Good luck.
After rereading your post I noticed you already ordered a SASS. If you can get it delivered to you for that price, get it. I am guessing your wait might be a year. I am guessing once you shoot it, your others will gather dust.
Last edit: 11 years 3 months ago by Siscowet. Reason: Additions
11 years 3 months ago #16038

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Replied by Akai on topic ...Determining "Value" In Today's Environment...

:I-agree: The ArmaLite is or would be the choice for me, being a owner the quality surpasses none and should hold it's value if not increase! and being a collector of fine weapons, you will not be disappointed in your decision with the SASS or I will buy it from you if you are. The government is the only decider in the major factor in the price according to my dealer depending on what type of bill or if any pass :pray: prices on mags, ammo and such my go back down, but I don't think we will see any decrease in the price of guns from current levels, my opinion! George do you have a bayonet for your 03? I have been looking for one for my Remington 03A3 and welcome to the group :usa:
AKAI
11 years 3 months ago #16049

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Replied by Charlie on topic ...Determining "Value" In Today's Environment...

My dad used to say that he didn't have enough money to buy cheap tools, and I've never been much of one to accept less than a quality product.

There is usually a "sweet spot" in the market such that you can get the quality and performance you want without being foolish or extravagant, and I think that the AR-10 Super SASS is right in that sweet spot. It boasts the same 1 MOA accuracy as my AR-10BNMF (National Match), and the 10BNMF is one sweet rifle! If I wanted to reach out and touch something at 800-1200 yds I'd be looking at .338 Lapua, but I believe that you will be satisfied at lesser range.

I question the ethics of charging for a back-ordered product, but if they deliver quickly I'd wave it off.

Charlie
"Yes officer, I know I smell like beer. I'm not drinking it, I'm wearing it!"
11 years 3 months ago #16083

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Replied by 13fcolt on topic ...Determining "Value" In Today's Environment...

Even before the insanity, the super sass was a back order item 9 times out of 10 anyway. I placed my order before I deployed and still didn't get it for almost 3 months after I got back making it a 19 month back order with an armalite stocking dealer. I've never seen one stay on the shelf very long when they are in stock so I'd recommend holding on to it, if it is what you want. If it turns out you don't want it, finding a good home for it wont be a problem. I see buying it as a win win, but then I am biased in favor of the sass.
ArmaLite Super SASS for sale W/ extras. PM for details.
11 years 3 months ago #16085

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Replied by OleCowboy on topic ...Determining "Value" In Today's Environment...

FYI I too am retired, but my wife tells me I am just tired.

Armalite has been around a long time, albeit some issues, but then they all have. Most of the AR companies out there were not in business a few years ago and in the AR 15 world, if you have a garage or can rent a storage unit you can go into the AR business. Only the ones that can afford it even make ANY of their parts.

That said the scary thing is your link to personalchoice. Cannot get their website to pull up and I am on a fiber optic connection, been trying this afternoon. OK, maybe down for admin work, but on a Sat afternoon, not if you work for me in IT, you come in to the data center or office at 0200 hrs MONDAY and you have till 0600 to do what needs be done.

But MOST frightening is the fact they have debited your CC, when a company does that for for unshipped goods you should beware of them. They are either operating on a slim budget and lack the money to buy the product you have ordered, thus have to use you to do so. CAUTION, INVESTIGATE before you give them a dime...

My first search for them provided this:

Regarding: Company called ALLEGED FRAUD

Personal Choice Outfitters International
Website: www.personalchoiceoutfitters.com
25560 W. HWY 85 Suite 5
Buckeye, Arizona 85326
Tel (623) 386-7261

We ordered AK. They took our money from our debit card and never
delivered the rifle.

THEREFORE Grand Theft Criminal Charge and
WARRANT FOR ARREST of the princiapal / Owner of that company.

Furthermore: We are now to conduct Bounty Hunting - Citizen's Arrest.
We will find them, what ever it takes, even hundreds of thousands dollars.

Also we are to involve FBI.

We have filed CRIMINAL COMPLAINT against them with:
Cheef of Police Mark Mann
BUCKEYE POLICE DEPARTMENT
100 N. Apache Rd. Suite D
Buckeye Arizona 85326
Tel (623) 386-4421

We have Criminal Complaint Report already with:
LEROY D. BACA, Sheriff
Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department
Station TAG 215 Deputy Tseng
Tel (310) 855-8850

RE: Their website
It is hosted by Godaddy.com
server update 9/11/2012
Registrant: Second provider - - - fraudulent
DomainByProxy.com
Note: The real site owner is hidden --- scammer

Trace: Actual store is in some one else building
However no one there

forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=381140

When I do a check on them with GoDaddy I get this:

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, LLC (www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: PERSONALCHOICEOUTFITTERS.COM
Created on: 23-Apr-07
Expires on: 23-Apr-13
Last Updated on: 11-Sep-12

Registrant:
Domains By Proxy, LLC

DomainsByProxy.com
14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
United States

NOTE the Domains By Proxy. This means they did not go direct to GoDaddy by are hiding behind Domains by proxy...WHY?

So I did a trace and I get this:

Los Angeles, CA, US Ok 324 18.62 sec 0.02 209.236.67.150 West Cost Hosting
SPb, Russia Http error:Http_client.Bad_message("Unknown reason (e.g. unexpected eof, timeout)") 40.18 sec 209.236.67.150 mrhost.biz
Seattle, WA, US Http error:Http_client.Bad_message("Unknown reason (e.g. unexpected eof, timeout)") 40.06 sec 209.236.67.150 OH Web Hosting
SPb, Russia Http error:Http_client.Bad_message("Unknown reason (e.g. unexpected eof, timeout)") 40.19 sec 209.236.67.150 WebsaitInfo
Kiev, Ukraine Http error:Http_client.Bad_message("Unknown reason (e.g. unexpected eof, timeout)") 40.21 sec 209.236.67.150 ABCname
New York, NY, US Http error:Http_client.No_reply 10.08 sec 209.236.67.150 HostGW.com Webhosting
Frankfurt, Germany Http error:Http_client.Bad_message("Unknown reason (e.g. unexpected eof, timeout)") 40.15 sec 209.236.67.150 AllServ.Net.UA
Los Angeles, CA, US Http error:Http_client.Bad_message("Unknown reason (e.g. unexpected eof, timeout)") 40.02 sec 209.236.67.150 PremiumReseller
Munich, Germany Http error:Http_client.Bad_message("Unknown reason (e.g. unexpected eof, timeout)") 40.19 sec 209.236.67.150 mrhost.biz
Erfurt, Germany Http error:Http_client.Bad_message("Unknown reason (e.g. unexpected eof, timeout)") 40.15 sec 209.236.67.150 VHosting Solution LLC
Jona, Switzerland Http error:Http_client.Bad_message("Unknown reason (e.g. unexpected eof, timeout)") 42.13 sec 209.236.67.150 ComunidadHosting
Paris, France Http error:Http_client.Bad_message("Unknown reason (e.g. unexpected eof, timeout)") 40.17 sec 209.236.67.150 IntoHost
Oklahoma city, OK, US Ok 324 28.26 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 KVC HOSTING
Atlanta, GA, US Ok 324 29.00 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 Phil-Hosting.com
Montreal, Quebec, Ca Ok 324 24.09 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 XP-Hosting.com
Lansing, MI, US Ok 324 23.63 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 Rioserver
Falkenstein, Germany Ok 324 23.74 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 Provisov.Net
Gdansk, Poland Ok 324 24.94 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 HCX Hosting
Kiev, Ukraine Ok 324 26.01 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 iPROsrv
Amsterdam, Netherlands Ok 324 24.19 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 PDhost
Hampshire, UK Ok 324 25.46 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 PremiumReseller
SPb, Russia Ok 324 23.67 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 Indahost
Moscow, Russia Ok 324 21.80 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 JustHost
Kiev, Ukraine Ok 324 24.51 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 HOSTED
Bangkok, Thailand Ok 324 24.06 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 Chaiyo Hosting
Kiev, Ukraine Ok 324 22.41 sec 0.01 209.236.67.150 VDS64.com
Kiev, Ukraine


What this tells me is that GoDaddy is hosting the Domain NAME, but not hosting the website, while not rare, in fact I have done, but I never hosted my sites outside the US.

I think I would see if I could get my money back...but that is just me, you make your own call...

I know where Buckeye, AZ is, been thru there MANY, MANY times (I lived in Scottsdale). Buckeye is a wide spot in the road, a low rent area!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Sharkey, Siscowet
Last edit: 11 years 3 months ago by OleCowboy.
11 years 3 months ago #16127

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Replied by Siscowet on topic ...Determining "Value" In Today's Environment...

Here is a link to a thread on AR15.com talking about issues with them. It doesn't look good.
www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1394713_Anybod...ice_Outfitters_.html
11 years 3 months ago #16130

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Replied by VTIT on topic ...Determining "Value" In Today's Environment...

I did a traceroute to them and got the following (I cut out a couple addresses because they were mine):

3 9 ms 9 ms 9 ms te-9-3-ur01.lebanon.nh.boston.comcast.net [68.87
.156.45]
4 11 ms 12 ms 12 ms po-50-ur01.berlin.vt.boston.comcast.net [68.87.1
46.214]
5 25 ms 73 ms 48 ms be-70-ar01.needham.ma.boston.comcast.net [68.85.
69.177]
6 80 ms 64 ms 76 ms he-2-5-0-0-cr01.newyork.ny.ibone.comcast.net [68
.86.94.201]
7 59 ms 59 ms 58 ms he-4-12-0-0-cr01.ashburn.va.ibone.comcast.net [6
8.86.85.29]
8 61 ms 59 ms 59 ms he-4-6-0-0-cr01.56marietta.ga.ibone.comcast.net
[68.86.89.162]
9 72 ms 70 ms 70 ms pos-1-5-0-0-cr01.dallas.tx.ibone.comcast.net [68
.86.85.253]
10 102 ms 107 ms 106 ms he-0-13-0-0-cr01.losangeles.ca.ibone.comcast.net
[68.86.85.145]
11 296 ms 107 ms 108 ms pos-2-10-0-0-cr01.sanjose.ca.ibone.comcast.net [
68.86.87.189]
12 110 ms 110 ms 111 ms pos-0-6-0-0-pe01.11greatoaks.ca.ibone.comcast.ne
t [68.86.85.66]
13 119 ms 109 ms 111 ms 173.167.57.122
14 112 ms 125 ms 111 ms ae0-80g.cr1.sjc1.us.nlayer.net [69.22.143.117]
15 113 ms 112 ms 111 ms ae1-70g.cr1.pao1.us.nlayer.net [69.22.143.166]
16 190 ms 169 ms 174 ms xe-0-0-0.cr2.slc1.us.nlayer.net [69.22.142.0]
17 129 ms 129 ms 129 ms as29854.xe-1-0-0.cr2.slc1.us.nlayer.net [69.22.1
53.86]
18 129 ms 128 ms 130 ms 206.130.126.26.west-datacenter.net [206.130.126.
26]
19 165 ms 164 ms 164 ms 206.130.126.69.west-datacenter.net [206.130.126.
69]
20 128 ms 132 ms 129 ms dl-573-45.slc.westdc.net [209.236.67.150]

Trace Complete.

Unfortunately that block is assigned to West Host so you can't narrow it down any further. They have no email server address associated and no registered Security Certificate. Very sketchy.
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11 years 3 months ago #16133

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Replied by Charlie on topic ...Determining "Value" In Today's Environment...

Crap! Call the CC company right now, and thank your lucky stars it's not on a debit card.

There was one homebrew shop I ordered some hops from last October 4 (I'm a homebrewer too). They immediately charged my card but it was a piddly 20 bucks and delivery was expected in 2 weeks. I didn't receive the hops until December 5, and needless to say I won't be ordering from them again.

Charlie
"Yes officer, I know I smell like beer. I'm not drinking it, I'm wearing it!"
11 years 3 months ago #16134

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